The way I understand it is if you can turn over the overstable disc (anhyzer a bit) it will go longer when the overstable brings it back to its natural flight path. The overstable is also more predictable on the overall flight path and will stay on the correct trajectory where an understable can turn (anhyzer) too much and will not come back. The overstables are also great at fighting wind.
Last Edit: Jul 9, 2008 18:30:04 GMT -5 by toddkrau
hmm thanks for the reply. it's probably just my newbie form, but i feel like i have to anhyzer the hell out of of my wraith (not even a super overstable disc) to get it ending fairly straight- if i'm lucky enough to get the first 2/3 of the flight right it still hooks like colfax ho at the end.
innova's disc chart also seems a bit off to me because i can throw a teebird much straighter and maybe even further than i can a sidewinder. i'm looking forward to trying a TL which may be my bread and butter.
if anyone else can pitch in i'd appreciate it. thanks
the more you play the better and stronger your snap will get which is what all of the stabilities are geared around... the snap and spin you can put on the disc
For me if i throw a sidewinder super hyzer (like 45 degrees) and give it a solid pop it will still pop all the way back to flat and all the way over anny until it dives into the dirt - this is because it's so understable with it's -3 or -4 or whatever it is
This whole world is one of the things that makes DG so d**n fun... you can use all kinds of different discs to do all kinds of different things... for example
I know my understable discs will pop flat even if i let 'em go way hyzer, so if there's a quick dogleg left that requires a long flat run after the quick turn i'll throw that hyzer understable, it'll turn real quick to start but pop flat (hopefully) and finish out straight
So the stronger your snap the more pop - which leads to ppl who have incredible snaps actually being able to turn over overstable discs and do with them what ppl with weaker snaps normally do with understable/stable discs
^all a bit of a simplification but I hope i'm getting my thoughts across
I like experimenting with lots of different throws - lately i've been playing around with my Excaliber (super duper overstable) and letting it rip with a huge anny (say 30+ degrees) way up in teh air, and watching it do a huuuuge high S swoop because i know it will ALWAYS fade back because it's so overstable - if i was to do that with a stable or understable disc it'd just turn and never fade back causing it to knife out and spike into the dirt still holding its anny angle
As an added note (disclaimer: this is purely from personal experience and lots of forum reading, nothing official)
It's much easier to turn over discs that are lighter, and many attest to particulr plastic being better as well
The hierarchies I've seen go something like (more turn to less) : DX, Champion, Pro/Star
I have a 175g Star Destroyer (< destroyers are pretty darn overstable) that i HAVE to anny if i want to get it to hold that right hand turn at all, but i also have a 169g DX destroyer that pops over like a mofo! I have to throw it 5-10 degrees hyzer and it pops up into a beautiful, long anny S...
hope that also helps.
If you're throwing a 172+ star wraith try out a 168 for a bit, i bet you'll be amazed
Ok, I feel like there are some major misconceptions regarding the topic of this thread (overstable discs), especially amongst younger/newer players. I am often concerned that the new generation of disc golfers are being led astray concerning this and the game as a whole is suffering from it. I think much of the blame is to be placed on the big name disc companies (Innova, Discraft, etc.) with the way they market their discs and their BS flight-charts and whatnot. The other big problem is that the sport has no teachers. Their are no lessons to teach proper technique and most people learn by watching and immitating. For every good piece of advice you might get from some local pro, you will no doubt get 10 times as much bad advice from golfers who don't know what they are talking about.
I'm sure I sound a little full of myself or like a know-it-all, but I feel strongly about this issue and have good reason to, I believe. I've been playing for about 17 years and I've had the honor and good fortune to learn from some of the greatest players in Colorado and the World. (John Schiller, Scott Stokely, etc.) I've watched the evolution of disc technology and the game in general over the last decade. It has steadily become more and more power oriented at the expense of the finesse game. Discs have become more and more overstable and course-design has come to accomodate that type of skill-set. Trust me when I say that overstable is not better!
I almost responded to Satori's first post on this thread, but I was interested to see what other people had to say first. The easy answer to the initial question of why more advanced players prefer more overstable discs is (as Shank is getting at): more advanced players put more spin and speed on the disc, so that "overstable" disc is not as overstable for them as it is for somebody with less speed and spin. ("snap" can be equated to "spin" because that is what snap is creating) So the main thing to always keep in mind when talking about "overstable" or "understable" is that these are completely relative terms. This seems obvious, but I think it is at the root of most players' confusions on this issue. When Innova puts out a flight-chart or applies some kind of "stability rating" (+1, -1, etc.) to their discs, it does not really apply to most golfers. Most of those stability ratings and labels assume that the disc is being thrown with the speed and spin of an experienced, professional level golfer. I think this is a major mistake made by these companies! The vast majority of golfers who are purchasing these discs do not throw at the Professional level, so the ratings just mislead them. This is no-doubt partially a marketing ploy to sell more frisbees. The same thing goes on in other sports as well. Just think of your average ball-golfer buying some club or set of balls because that's the same kind that Tiger uses. Well guess what? You're no Tiger, and you'd do better if you got some equipment that fits your current style and ability. To compound the problem, we in this part of the country have to deal with the altitude difference. Players are often confused or unaware of this fact as well, but all discs are more overstable at higher altitudes. Your discs will fly more overstable here than at sea-level, and more overstable on top of Aspen mountain than here. So when a new driver comes out of Innova's factory in California, they give it to some of their Pros to throw, and then asign stability ratings to that disc accordingly. Just remember that the stability rating applies to pros who can throw 500 feet and are playing at Sea-level! So when you and your buddies pick up a new Wraith from the Wright Life, it is not really a "stable" driver like it may claim. If you think it is, then you are probably not throwing with very good technique. (and that goes for many of the Advanced and even Pro players here in town)
That brings me to my next point: Players see those stability ratings on the discs and try to make them true for themselves. That new Wraith may not be a "stable" driver for an Am player, but they think it's supposed to be, so they roll their wrist over and release it with a lot of anhyzer angle so that after it flexes out and turns back its S-turn equates to a straight stable shot. All the while they are developing bad technique, losing their potential for both power, accuracy, and consistency. Not to mention the fact that once they get on a more wooded course (not Edora) and have to throw a straight shot down a tighter fairway, they can't do it because that big loopy S is is no longer an option. Now don't get me wrong, experimenting with different discs and different angles of release for different types of shots is one of the most fun parts of the game (as Shank says). But in order to maximize one's potential, you need to realize the limitations of throwing that way. I even see Pros falling into this trap... especially around here at higher altitude. Innova comes out with their newest drivers (Destroyers and Excalibers for example) and they are supposed to be their longest flying discs yet, so everybody starts throwing them. But those discs are too overstable to be used for anything but hyzer shots at this altitude, even for Pros. Without even realizing it, most of the time, even the pros start rolling their wrists over and adjusting their release angles to make the disc fly like they think it should. Trust me, there are only a few people in Colorado who can throw farther than I can, and I don't have the speed and spin necessary to make those discs fly flat or turnover, if I release them at a normal flat angle. Most people who think they are releasing these discs flat or slightly hyzer are really just rolling their wrists over as they follow through... and/or they may not be throwing them cleanly. Flutter/wobble will usually make a disc turn over more early in its flight. This is why players who throw a lot of side-arm/forehand shots will often use more overstable discs, because side-arms typically have more flutter and it's easy to roll your wrist over as you follow through.
So just to be clear, neither rolling your wrist as you follow through, nor having too much flutter (not releasing clean) are good things in the long run. They are bad habits that should be avoided. Rolling your wrist over and cranking some anhyzer on that new Wraith you got might be a quick fix that helps you throw that disc farther, but you would be better off throwing smooth and flat with a less stable driver (sidewinder or something). In fact most Ams (and beginners especially) probably shouldn't be throwing any of the newer faster type drivers at all. They would learn to throw much better by throwing more mid-range and short-drive type discs (like Stingrays, Cobras, Comets, etc.). Once ready for the next level they should use older style less stable drivers (like Cyclones, Leopards, Express, etc.).
If you really want to see if you are throwing smooth and at a good angle. Go throw some putters. Don't putt them, throw them! And not super overstable putters either. New Wizards, Rhynos, Challengers, etc., are a little too overstable. They lie, and let you get away with some flutter and turnover. Throw some basic Aviars, Magnets, stuff like that. If you are not throwing smooth and flat it should be obvious. These discs should not "flip-up" much in their flights if you are releasing cleanly. If you have to put a bunch of hyzer angle on them to get them to fly flat, then you are probably fluttering them or rolling your wrist or both. See if you can throw a hyzer shot with decent power with a putter, by releasing with a little angle on the disc. If you can't, then you probably aren't throwing the disc clean enough. I know many young pros who would fail that test, so don't feel bad if it's difficult at first. At least you'll know what you need to work on. This is a great way to practice. Most older-style putters are truly "stable" flying discs. The putter doesn't lie! You can learn alot and improve your throw by practicing throwing putters.
A couple more notes/responses:
Todd suggests that maybe overstable discs go farther: This is not true. It may seem this way to some players because they can put more power on the disc and not worry about it turning too much. Most of the faster/newer discs are also more overstable, so sometimes it is true that even an ugly forced turnover with a new fast driver may go farther than a pure straight flight with a much slower disc. Ultimately, the disc that will go the farthest for you, will be the one that is the least stable, while still being stable enough to handle your speed and spin. The key to a good distance drive is getting it to hold that flat or slightly turned-over angle. If the disc is too overstable it will just nose-up and hyzer out once it loses speed. Learn to throw less stable discs and you will throw farther!
Todd suggests that overstable discs are better in the wind: This is true (mostly). More overstable discs will be more reliable in the wind, especially into a head-wind. This is becaus headwinds will usually make a disc more understable. On the other hand though, tailwinds will usually make discs more overstable. So if you are looking for "flat and far" you might want to throw a less stable disc in a tailwind. Keep in mind that the most important thing in the wind is to throw smooth. If you can't get anything to go straight or hyzer into a headwind, then you are probably not releasing the disc clean enough, or with the proper angle. Heavier discs are also more consistent in the wind.
Satori, I can't even get a new wraith to fly straight for me and I can throw pretty far and hard! So don't worry. Discs become less stable as they get beat up. Even I prefer my wraiths a little beat up before I can get a good distance flight out of them. They are pretty overstable discs, as are almost all of the newer faster-style drivers on the market. Also, I wouldn't pay much attention to those flight-charts or stability ratings that Innova and Discraft have. They are not geared toward most players, and sometimes they are just plain wrong anyway. Different plastics and different runs of the same disc mold can often fly very different too. Not all Tee-birds fly the same, etc. I know that is confusing, but you just have to experiment and find the disc that works for you. Everybody has a different combination of speed and spin, and different discs will work better for different players, even players who are otherwise at a similar skill-level.
Shank emphasizes "snap": Snap is important as it helps generate spin. Spin is important for distance, smoothness, consistency, fighting the wind, etc. Play around with trying to put more snap/spin on the disc, but be careful not to sacrifice your follow-through to do it. If you try to snap a disc like a towel the tendency is to recoil real fast, but a strong follow-through with your arm and body is very important for both distance and accuracy.
Ok, that's more than enough for now! Just remember that overstable isn't necessarily better. Learn to throw smooth and flat, and you'll be a better player in the long-run. You'll even throw farther eventually, when you work up enough speed and spin to handle those more fast and overstable drivers. In closing I just want to say that a lot of the local Ams and Pros may think they know all this already and that it doesn't apply to them, but they are wrong. Most players, even Pros, even myself, make these mistakes and could benefit from learning to throw less stable discs better.
I wasn't going to play today, but now I think I'm going to go throw some putters before it gets dark! Play, practice, experiment, and have fun!
Peace - Evan Brummet (aka Gramma)
Last Edit: Jul 10, 2008 20:38:29 GMT -5 by evanjabr
thanks evan, for taking the time to key all that in. i'm new to the sport and am easily mislead to my credit though, i felt there was something fishy with the simplicity of the more (overstable = more advanced player) equation and the strict fact-like classification of flight charts, thus this thread. i've thrown an ultimate-style disc for a long time and am confident in my ability to release a disc flat- so when it flies quite differently from the path on a flight chart it's frustrating- i guess i don't throw with the same speed, power, snap, etc. as the tester.
the problem i forsee now is the desire to go throw every disc made in every weight made in order to obtain the "perfect quiver" for me. obviously another newbie impulse, but hey if a handful of people want to share their quiver for a day and go huck a hundred discs in some field i'm in! (also i'll be at edora tomorrow around 11 playing with a focus on all this if anyone wants in).
thanks again to everyone for the brainstorm. Satori (Dan)
Thank you Evan for the great information. There are so many new golfers in the past couple of years that you tend not to practice due to the heavy volume and simply play a slow round and make the same throwing errors. I know I could use a lot more help on proper technique.
If you ever want to provide a clinic on the proper throwing technique I would be very interested.
Last Edit: Jul 11, 2008 14:59:06 GMT -5 by toddkrau
i'm happy to report success at edora today! taking shank's advice into account i tried a true power grip (4 fingers on the rim rather than my usual 3) and a fully thingyed wrist. after a couple holes of poor accuracy i reigned it in and enjoyed drives than not only went further overall, but straighter for a much longer period of time- i missed an ace on hole 12 with a 166 DX valkyrie by a few feet!
this forum automatically changed "c0cked" to "thingyed". talk about over-censorship
Post by storm_king on Jul 11, 2008 16:59:30 GMT -5
No need to elaborate, or really add anything to what Evan posted. He did a good job of saying everything I would have said, and then some.
The one thing I will throw in is that I have, when practicing in a field, noticed on numerous occasions my understable drivers surpassing all my new, fancy, recently-released model drivers. Not that I didn't expect it, just that it's a good reminder that the **Special Edition TL**, Valkyrie's, Pro Starfire's, and other similar drivers, when thrown properly (see Evan's post above) can find some incredible distance.
I'll also throw my Roc's as far or farther than my drivers, once again, when thrown correctly.
KC Terry - PDGA #24773
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why we call it the present." - Baba Olatunji –
storm, what's the special edition TL? how does it differ from a regular TL? i was about to copdatnuts.
It's (I believe) the first variation of the TL ever made, circa 2000. Special Edition plastic was my favorite softer/grippy-er style of plastic. You could say it was the predecessor to the "pro" plastic on the shelves currently, but it was slightly different, obviously. Innova has definitely earned it's reputation for changing things around, as the term "pro" was used to describe many variations of plastic, all distinctly different.
Special Edition TL's have been my go to fairway driver for ages and I still keep one in the bag, and a few fresh ones waiting for duty. It's a fun disc. Check it out
Umm.. a test I assume?
KC Terry - PDGA #24773
"Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. Today is a gift. That's why we call it the present." - Baba Olatunji –